WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS PLACE

Voiceover: This is Viewpoint with attorney and author Chuck Crismier. Viewpoint is a one-hour talk show confronting the issues of America's heart and home. And now with today's edition of Viewpoint, here is Chuck Crismier.
Chuck Crismier: If I were to ask you what the Jerusalem of the East is, what would you say? Would you have any clue what I'm talking about? We're not talking about a Jerusalem in Israel. We're talking about the capital city of North Korea. Pyongyang, the capital city of North Korea, was once called the Jerusalem of the East in the early 20th century because it was a major global center for Protestant Christianity. So how did it become the most despised city for Christians to live in? The most dangerous city for Christians to live in? Even all of North Korea, the most dangerous country in the world for Christians to live in? How could such a metamorphosis take place from something so glorious to something so horrific? We want to talk about that here on Viewpoint today, and I'm glad that you've joined us. It's conversation, as always, with ever-increasing conviction, talk that transforms. Missionaries arrived in the late 1800s in North Korea. In fact, in Pyongyang, they built schools, hospitals, and universities. Then in 1907, there was a revival, a massive religious revival that turned the city into a spiritual hub. It was amazing. Hundreds of churches and thousands of believers made the city famous worldwide as a model of successful missionary work. In fact, one of my professors at Azusa Pacific University, a professor of New Testament, had been a missionary to Korea. I don't know whether it was North Korea or South Korea, but it was Korea. Korea now is in deep trouble, not just in the North, but also in the South. Today on Viewpoint, we have a special guest joining us, Dan Chung, who was born in South Korea. He's here in the States, and he is the author of *A Hard Freedom: The Dreams and Trauma of North Korean Refugees*. Actually, Mike Kim was the author of *Escaping North Korea*, and the foreword to Dan Chung's book is written by Mike Kim, one who escaped North Korea. But to escape North Korea is almost impossible. It's very difficult. To become a Christian in North Korea is almost a certain death sentence. So how do Christians live in North Korea? How can they even exist? Is it possible that the church in North Korea could actually be growing? That's what we want to find out here today on Viewpoint. Dan, it's good to have you on the program.
Dan Chung: Thanks for having me, Chuck.
Chuck Crismier: It is a delight. How long ago did you come here from South Korea?
Dan Chung: I was just a baby in 1977. My family immigrated to the Chicago area where I still live.
Chuck Crismier: How is it that they happened to come here? I thought South Korea was doing pretty well after the Korean War. Things were looking up in South Korea, I thought, so why come to the United States?
Dan Chung: In the seventies, it was still somewhat of a third-world country. It was still very poor, and the economy took off since the 1980s.
Chuck Crismier: So you weren't producing any Hondas. You weren't producing any Hyundais. You weren't producing any of those, even the Genesis, one of the most famous cars right now that's driving America's streets, being produced there in South Korea. But that wasn't existing at the time that you were born.
Dan Chung: Not at the time, no.
Chuck Crismier: Isn't that interesting? Well, so your family came here, and what did your dad do in South Korea?
Dan Chung: He was a banker. He worked for the Central Bank in South Korea. He had a great job, but during that time in the seventies, South Korea, though it was friendly to America, was a military rule. He told me this story that there was a military parade going down the street where his offices were, and his boss, it was in the summer, and his boss decided to open the windows to his office because it was unbearable. The military saw that the window was open, didn't like it, took his boss and beat him mercilessly. It was at that moment where my dad said, "I've had enough of this place. I'm going to America," where much of his family had already immigrated to.
Chuck Crismier: Wow. So you just open a window, and you're subject to the disgrace of an open beating.
Dan Chung: Yes.
Chuck Crismier: Wow. And that's South Korea.
Dan Chung: That was South Korea at the time. It has changed a lot.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so we had the Korean War that divided North and South. The DMZ zone separated them, and there's tremendous tension there. How is it that all this happened? What would cause North Korea, and particularly Pyongyang, which was the capital and still is the capital of North Korea, to turn from being the Jerusalem of the East to becoming such a dangerous place for Christians?
Dan Chung: Well, if you go back further in the 1900s, around 1908 was when Japan colonized the peninsula of Korea. It was a very oppressive rule, and up until Japan surrendered to the allied forces at the end of World War II, Korea was still occupied. Much like Eastern Europe at the time, we had a choice whether we wanted to fight the Russians to see who dominated the world or if we wanted to have a detente between the USSR and the United States. That's what they chose. The north side of the peninsula went to the Soviets, and the south side of the peninsula came under United States influence. That's where we're at today.
Chuck Crismier: It seems strange, though, that since Pyongyang, the capital, was called the Jerusalem of the East because of its serious and world-renowned turning to Christ and Christianity, a major revival there, how they would ever choose to go with the Soviet Union.
Dan Chung: It wasn't their choice. It was the choice of the powers that be. The peninsula was carved up by the allied forces. DC folks who couldn't find Korea on the map, unfortunately. That was the fate.
Chuck Crismier: So it didn't matter to them. They're just carving it up for geopolitical purposes to try to bring some end to the whole great battle with the head of the Nazi party and Mussolini and Japan. What an amazing history. Well, we're going to be back. We've had to lay the foundation for this history, and we're going to be back to have you talk to us about what's going on. What is the Lord doing there? Is the Holy Spirit still working even though Christians are not welcome in North Korea? What's the Holy Spirit doing? He can't be welcomed or unwelcomed by political forces. We will be right back.
Voiceover: Once upon a time, children could pray and read their Bibles in school. Divorces were practically unknown, as was child abuse. In our once great America, virginity and chastity were popular virtues, and homosexuality was an abomination. So what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Crismier, and I urge you to join me daily on Viewpoint where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the Fourth Commandment? Listen to Viewpoint on this radio station or anytime at saveus.org. Welcome back to Viewpoint. I'm Chuck Crismier. I understand our special guest today loved to play basketball in his earlier days. At a height of five feet eight inches, he was a tall South Korean. Is that right, Dan?
Dan Chung: I am five-foot-eleven-and-a-half.
Chuck Crismier: Oh, you're five-foot-eleven. Now that is something else. That's almost like a Goliath of Korea, isn't it?
Dan Chung: South Koreans are very tall today. In North Korea, the average height is significantly less because of the malnutrition, even though genetically we share the same heritage.
Chuck Crismier: Wow. So for all practical purposes, from a Korean standpoint, you've had your head in the clouds.
Dan Chung: Yes.
Chuck Crismier: Okay, so this matter of North and South Korea. We know that they were divided up by the allied forces that had absolutely no care whatsoever for the people, really. It was just a geopolitical decision that was made that basically consigned the North Koreans and those that were there, the Christians, to an absolute godless rulership that was severe beyond anything that we understand in the world today. Whether it be in China, whether it be in Iran, whether it be in Eritrea, it doesn't matter. North Korea takes the prize for the most dangerous country for Christians in the world today. So that's not exactly a badge of honor, is it?
Dan Chung: It's not. In fact, when World War II ended, the Soviet forces, Kim Il-sung was empowered by the Soviet forces. They took over and almost immediately went on a, excuse the term, crusade to rid the country of Christianity. In fact, when my family moved to Chicago in '77, we started attending my uncle's church. My uncle was actually trained as a pastor in Pyongyang. Unbeknownst even to my parents, who spoke to him quite frequently, they did not know that he had a heritage from North Korea. It was only after his death in 1998 that I heard from his children that he was actually a pastor trained there. He has, and I share this in my book, a very vivid testimony that was recorded in a book called *Christ of the Korean Heart* that was in publication here in America in the 1950s. He was basically waterboarded by the communists to give up his faith, but he didn't. His family at the time hid him under their floorboards. The army came into their house and was looking for him, and my uncle, underneath the floorboard, witnessed the extermination of his family. So without anything left in North Korea, he fled to South Korea.
Chuck Crismier: He was under the floorboards and they were killing his family right there. That had to be extremely painful. How could he even have kept silent enough to not be discovered?
Dan Chung: I wish I could ask him because we didn't even know he was from North Korea while he was alive. He was a man of very few words. He faithfully preached the word of God to his flock. My parents miss him every day, but they didn't know this very essential fact about him.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so you have quite a heritage there. You've been here since what age?
Dan Chung: One year old.
Chuck Crismier: One year old. So you really don't have any kind of personal memory or anything like that with regard to Korea, do you?
Dan Chung: I do not.
Chuck Crismier: Have you ever been back?
Dan Chung: I go back frequently because of the work that I do. I go back at least twice a year to South Korea.
Chuck Crismier: Okay. So what do you make, then, of our United States president just in the last two weeks deciding to kind of thumb his nose at South Korea in favor of trying to make nice with Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea?
Dan Chung: I am not a political analyst, but I can just give my personal opinion. Actually, it's just I have questions because North Korea, during President Trump's first term, his goal was to denuclearize North Korea. They were very close to having a nuclear weapon, and now it seems like they do have nuclear weapons. The first term, he was trying to denuclearize, but now that they're not, it's unclear what Trump actually wants out of this next meeting. They've made it very, very clear, North Korea has, over the years between many, many administrations, U.S. administrations, that they will not give up their nuclear weapons.
Chuck Crismier: Well, it's a cult. It's almost a religious cult, the Kim cult.
Dan Chung: Yes, the Kim family dynasty. Even Christopher Hitchens, the famous atheist apologist, said that North Korea is one of the most religious countries in the world. By compulsion. They are forced to worship the statues of Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, and now Kim Jong-un. In fact, every citizen must by law have two pictures, a picture of Kim Il-sung and a picture of Kim Jong-il in their houses. If their houses catch fire, they get in trouble if they don't go in and try to save those pictures. Yes, it is a cult of personality.
Chuck Crismier: We're getting quite an image here. What concerns me, and I know we're not getting into the actual issues of the church yet, but we're going to, I understand that in South Korea, they actually are embracing a trend toward communism now. What do you make of that?
Dan Chung: I think that they should speak to the 33,000 North Korean defectors who have made it to South Korea to see what their experience with communism was like. I think they should listen to their stories. It's amazing to me. I go to a cleaner that is run by two Koreans, a brother and a sister. I went there this last Friday to take in some clothes, and I asked where the sister was. He told me she's in South Korea. I asked why she is in South Korea. He said it's because she's married to an American military man who was just sent to South Korea for three years. So I was thinking, really? I didn't realize that we had bases in South Korea. He said, "Yeah, not only that, but she told me it's horrible there." She said she can't believe how it is in South Korea, that it's nothing like she thought it would be.
Dan Chung: I don't know what her expectations were. South Korea does have a lot of problems. It is ultra-capitalism. The income disparity between the few families who own Samsung, Hyundai, and the other conglomerates and the rest of the people is very, very high. When that happens, it is not an economy with a robust middle class like America is. So that type of situation is ripe for communism to take hold in that country.
Chuck Crismier: Well, the gal that went over there is a dedicated Christian. She was just astounded because I think she thought that it was far more Christian, far more submitted to Christ and his ways than what she found over there. What is even more shocking to me is that the largest church in the world was a South Korean church.
Dan Chung: Yes. The nation claims about a 20% Christian percentage, which is quite high, but it's not anywhere near the United States. Number two, it is a rapidly declining population of Christians in that country. There are many problems in the church out there like we've seen here in the U.S. Very top-heavy types of churches where there have been abuses, and that has turned off the younger generation and the church is losing numbers, bleeding numbers. It seems to be that the same thing is happening, the same dynamics are happening not only in South Korea but in Japan as well. Japan is a different story. Japan is a very, very low percentage of Christians there. They don't have any megachurches. They are mostly Buddhist and Shinto from what I know. There isn't very much of a church in Japan today.
Chuck Crismier: Now, let's jump now from the largest church in the world, reported to have a membership of somewhere between 700,000 and 800,000, started by a Korean man very well known around the world, and we move from there back up to North Korea and we find that it's almost impossible to be identified as a Christian in North Korea and live for at least 24 hours.
Dan Chung: The government, from the very beginning, has been very anti-Christian. Children, when they first go to preschool, they are instructed by their teachers, "If you hear your parents praying to anyone other than Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, if you hear them say the words like Christ or Jesus, and if you see them with a Bible, you should report them immediately to the government." Even from a very early age, children are indoctrinated to rat out their parents and they're told that they are doing a good thing. That persists to this day where parents can't even teach their children anything about Christianity.
Chuck Crismier: Isn't that amazing? Wow. It's hard for us to relate to that, but that's the reality. I want to make available to you Dan's book called *A Hard Freedom: The Dreams and Trauma of North Korean Refugees*. $23 will put this hardbound book in your hands. I think it's going to be encouraging to you. A lot of difficult stuff to come to grips with, but we need to as North American Christians. We need to come to grips with the rest of the world because this is the rest of the world that Jesus died for. We have some kind of a responsibility there. They're still our brothers and sisters in Christ, that is those that have embraced Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Get a copy of the book, *A Hard Freedom*. Your gift of $23 to Save America Ministries will put it in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org. You can give us a call at 1-800-SAVE-USA, or write to us at Save America Ministries, P.O. Box 70879, Richmond, Virginia, 23255. Why do you call it a "hard freedom", my brother?
Dan Chung: Number one, it's very difficult for them to reach freedom. North Koreans who want to escape have to go through China.
Chuck Crismier: Which itself is not a friend to grace.
Dan Chung: It is not at all. China and North Korea are close allies and China has agreed to make it as difficult as possible for North Koreans living there. It is actually legal to murder a North Korean in China. There's no recourse for that at all. We'll be right back after this break with Dan Chung. *A Hard Freedom: The Dreams and Trauma of North Korean Refugees*. We want to find out a little bit more about what that's like, and then what is Dan doing and what can we do? We'll be right back.
Voiceover: Learn so much more about Chuck Crismier and Save America Ministries on our website, saveus.org. For example, under the marriage section, God has marriage on His mind. Chuck has some great resources to strengthen your marriage. First off, a fact sheet on the state of the marital union, a fact sheet on the state of ministry, marriage, and morals. saveus.org. Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. What does the Bible really teach about this? Find all of this at saveus.org. Also, *A Letter to Pastors: The Hosea Project*. saveus.org. And many more resources to strengthen your marriage. It's all on Chuck's website, saveus.org. Again, you can listen to Chuck's Viewpoint broadcasts live and archived at Save America Ministries' website at saveus.org.
Chuck Crismier: Before we're rejoined by our guest, Dan Chung, I want to set a stage for you to try to help us understand a very interesting dilemma. Let's go back to the date of the Civil War in our country. The country was severely divided, North and South. We call it the battle of the North against the South, South against the North, and so on. They say it was about slavery. Yes, it was about slavery, but it was about state's interests or powers. It was about a number of different things. But the hatred was great. Very great. After the war, imagine for me for a moment, you're living in the South and you think, "I want to be more like the North. I want to go to the North where at least there wasn't such an antipathy toward the South." So you get to the North and what do you think it would be like? What do you think it would be like to try to assimilate into the society of the North in America around 1866, 1867? I can tell you: very difficult. Now, let's suppose that you were in the North and you really had an affection for the South. In fact, you even had relatives that had been down in the South in the days of the war, and you wanted to go down there and you wanted to set up residence in the South. You get down there and it ain't what you thought it was going to be because they don't trust you. They don't much like you. You're one of those Northerners, and we don't do Northern here in the South. Now, I want you to imagine that kind of situation now with regard to North Koreans escaping and trying to make their way to South Korea. What do you think it would be like? They've lived under intense communism, the worst ever, and a spiritual cult of personality, the Kim cult, hating Christianity of every sort. Now they've made it to the South. What do you think they're going to feel like? Well, that's what Dan's going to tell us. He's going to tell us a little bit about what it's like for a North Korean to escape to freedom but not necessarily finding a warm heart. What say you, Dan?
Dan Chung: Once they get to South Korea, they would have had to endure many abuses in China and of course, many abuses in their home country of North Korea. They are actually given a somewhat warm welcome by the government of South Korea. Families are given about $20,000, the equivalent of $20,000 U.S. dollars to start a new life, housing subsidies, free medical care, and so on. Just as an example, here in the U.S., someone coming in as a legal refugee here in the U.S. gets a couple of months of Medicaid. That's about it.
Chuck Crismier: So they come in and they get those governmental hugs. But beyond that, the society itself isn't all that favorable to them, is it?
Dan Chung: It's not. I mean, if you can imagine living in a country like South Korea where North Korea is constantly threatening to annihilate you, turn you into a sea of fire. Children in South Korea are trained to spot North Korean spies, and there's actually a hotline that every child in South Korea knows to turn a North Korean in. Wow. So it is with that background and that context that people from the North come into South Korea.
Chuck Crismier: So if they're coming in as a Christian from North Korea, because there's so few of them there and because one would not suspect that they would be true followers of Jesus Christ, even they are terribly suspect, and it's a pretty awkward or perhaps even dangerous situation.
Dan Chung: Some North Koreans do come in as Christians. They usually become Christians in China where they've met missionaries and operations like Crossing Borders in China. But in the church, there's always a dynamic of pity. South Korean Christians know how hard North Koreans have had it, and they kind of pity these North Korean refugees coming in. I would do the same. They are in many ways to be pitied, but you can't have a relationship as brother and sister when they're only being pitied. Yes. They don't want to be pitied. They just want to be a normal member of the church, and that is very challenging for them.
Chuck Crismier: Okay, now you're heading up an organization called Crossing Borders. What is that organization all about?
Dan Chung: Well, our mission is to share the compassion of Christ to North Koreans and their children. Since 2003, we've been helping refugees in China where it's illegal to help them. Most of the people that we help are women who've been trafficked in China. China has a gender disparity because of the one-child policy. There are about 35 million more men than women. Women coming into China with no human rights where it's perfectly legal to murder them, they become sex slaves. We helped a woman very early on who was purchased by a group of men. She was kept locked up in a shed. These five men could not afford a woman for themselves and so they shared her. So yes, sexual slavery, for sure. These are the people that we help in China.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so it's pretty hard, maybe impossible, for you to actually reach into North Korea to reach people for Christ, isn't it?
Dan Chung: Yes. There are mission outfits in North Korea, but they cannot do very much proselytizing or any proselytizing at all. They are closely watched. I think it's a valid operation where they're there to pray for the country and to benefit the people of that country. They run factories, farms, etc. But that is not the type of work that we do. We want to minister and share the love of Christ with them.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so the only way you can do that is to focus on them when they're escaping from North Korea, coming through China, and/or coming into South Korea.
Dan Chung: Correct. Exactly. That's what we do.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so what do you do? What is your modus operandi? How do you do that? Can you even talk about that or is that top secret?
Dan Chung: I can share a little bit about our work in China. We work through the underground church where we find pockets of where North Korean women have been sold and we share the gospel with them. When we started in 2003, it was an emergency situation. People were bleeding out of North Korea because of the famine. The famine lasted between 1995 and 1998. That is when most of the people came into China. So when we first started, it was an emergency situation. We were handing out resources, as we should have. But as time went on, we didn't think it was healthy for people to receive handouts indefinitely. So we decided that a church was very well-suited to help these people. It is a community where they can support one another, and so if we were ever kicked out of the country or banned to do this work, they can continue. And that's what has happened. I mean, we are still in the country, but we are heavily restricted.
Chuck Crismier: All right, so what you're trying to do is reach to those that are fleeing but also trying to facilitate things to build an indigenous church, in other words, so that foreigners are not seen to be the lords of the church.
Dan Chung: That's right. Exactly.
Chuck Crismier: Which is the current model of missionary emphasis and has been for the past several decades, hasn't it?
Dan Chung: Yes, sir. Yeah.
Chuck Crismier: Okay. So you live in Chicago. How is that convenient for running Crossing Borders? You have to cross the border from Chicago just to get out of Chicago. It may be a problem since almost all of your recent governors are in jail.
Dan Chung: Yes, unfortunately, that is our legacy here. It is such a privilege to live in America. I just want to say that because non-profits, there are non-profits in South Korea, but they're severely underfunded. We have the advantage of fundraising here in the United States where there is more free cash, there's a much more robust middle class here, and there are very wealthy Christians who are willing to fund our work. I've been fundraising on fundraising trips throughout the world, and the American people are the most, hands down, the most generous people on earth. So that is the advantage that we have here in the U.S. It is such a robust economy here, comparatively speaking. Even to South Korea, a very wealthy country.
Chuck Crismier: Even they're sending over Hyundais and the latest form, the Genesis, which is a luxury automobile that's really taking off here by storm and receiving the highest accolades, comparing it even to BMW and Mercedes and so on. That's coming from South Korea. Who would have ever thought? We'll be right back after this. Dan, I want you to tell us more about Crossing Borders, and then I want you to give us a couple of illustrations that stand out to you about North Korean refugees and what they've had to go through and how you assist them. We'll be right back.
Voiceover: Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a hard longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a 1% gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore first-century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, "I'll build my church." Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family, and it was said by all who observed, "Behold how they love one another." Incredible. But the same can be found right now. Go to saveus.org and click Sell Church. We can revive first-century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body, not a building. That's saveus.org. Click Sell Church. Always great to have you join us here on Viewpoint, friends. Our viewpoint determines destiny. Our viewpoint concerning others that God is working in by His Spirit around the world determines destiny. We have to have a heart that is open to them, and it's very hard for us to understand that here in this country. So we're trying to translate that as best we can here in 55 minutes on this program today. So our guest says in his book, "Sexual assault is one of the risks that refugees face on the underground railroad. The biggest risk comes from people caught on their way to freedom. They're usually sent back to North Korea and imprisoned. Those who are caught on the UGRR are usually dealt with harshest punishments because it meant that they were attempting to escape to an enemy country such as South Korea, the United States, or European country. So China has also an incentive to police the underground railroad. When refugees escape, they often speak publicly of the abuse and cruelty they experienced there. So China wants to show a good face on the international stage's human rights violations, the harder it will be to trade with the world. So it's beneficial for them to stop the underground railroad." So our guest says it is a game of cat and mouse between brokers and the Chinese government. Routes must constantly be rethought and new technologies deployed by China must always be considered. You've got to stay on top of your game in order to be successful here, don't you, Dan?
Dan Chung: Yeah. China now has basically 100% coverage of their country in their network of AI-powered cameras, which is an issue here in the United States today or a growing issue. People are tracked every minute of their existence.
Chuck Crismier: Well, they're trying to do that in this country with what they call flock cameras.
Dan Chung: Correct. I would reconsider that if I were the United States government. Because these cameras, especially in China, even if you have a mask on your face and you're walking in a crowded group of people, they can still track you by your gait, the way that you walk. Anywhere you go in the country, you are now being tracked by the Chinese government. There's no way around it unless you go to the furthest reaches of the Gobi Desert, which is part of their country. So it is virtually impossible today to escape the country. Only a couple hundred per year can do it now, whereas thousands per year were doing it in the mid-2010s. It is a difficult task.
Chuck Crismier: So the underground railroad that you're talking about from North Korea through China has basically been closed up, making it almost impossible for someone to come through. And when they try, they're captured and either killed or sent back to North Korea where they might be killed or imprisoned.
Dan Chung: Yes, they are sent to a prison camp system that has been compared to Nazi Germany. But the difference between the prison camp system of North Korea and Nazi Germany is that the North Korean prison camp system has been refined for over 70 years. They have it down to a science of how to torture their people. Refugees who we talk to who have been through this system, many of whom have been through this system, say that they've been forcibly starved. They have forced labor. They make wigs in their prison camp system. That's one of the many industries there, and the government profits off of all of that.
Chuck Crismier: So they make the wigs off of the people that are being killed in China, harvested in China, or even in North Korea.
Dan Chung: I don't know where they get the hair. I think it's domestically, but yes, I'm sure many of the wigs come from deceased prison camp members. The torture is so traumatic that when you reach freedom in South Korea, most of the refugees cannot sleep at night without medication. All 33,000 of them. Talking to experts, they say they cannot sleep, they are heavily traumatized, they do not trust counseling because in North Korea, if you are sent to a psychological ward, you will also be punished for that. You and your family will be punished for needing psychological help. Anything from a siren going off in the middle of the night can set these people off and take them to a place where they're not present in the place where they're actually standing.
Chuck Crismier: You know, to a certain extent, I can't personally relate to that, but I have a friend, a very, very wealthy man, by the way, who was in the United States military. He was a pilot in bombers and he experienced such trauma bombing people and so on, that even as an extremely wealthy man owning his own jet, he can't sleep at night and wakes up in terror to the point where he had to move out of the home from his wife because it was too dangerous for her because of what happened to him in the middle of the night, ongoing.
Dan Chung: Yes. And we have sent doctors from the United States who specialize in PTSD. They treat combat veterans, and they say they see the same suite of symptoms as they do a combat veteran. So it's very, very similar.
Chuck Crismier: I can understand that. I can appreciate that, and my heart goes out to these people. There's nothing I can personally do to help them. In fact, there's nothing you can do to personally help them. So what do you do? You have this ministry, Crossing Borders, and what kind of efficacy do you have in reaching these people for the Lord, and what's the follow-through? Is there any discipleship? How do you deal with these people that you have committed yourself to help?
Dan Chung: So like I said, in China, we build communities where they can help each other. We have people visiting them to make sure the communities are healthy and growing. In South Korea, our ministry looks completely different. It is more trauma care. So we introduce community to them. It is very important for traumatized people to talk with one another about their experience. I cannot relate to their trauma, but they can relate to each other's trauma. That's number one. Number two, we try to get them to exercise. Exercising is such an important way for your mind to occupy your body again. When you're traumatized, you go somewhere else. Your mind goes to another place, like you said with your friend. Exercise is such an effective way to treat trauma, so we host free exercise classes for these people. And lastly, we introduce them to the love of God and we share the gospel with them. That is our ultimate goal.
Chuck Crismier: Crossing Borders is the name of the ministry. So how do people get in touch with you to explore this further?
Dan Chung: We have a website, crossingbordersnk.org. NK for North Korea. You can find out about us there. We're on Facebook and Instagram as well, and we have a YouTube channel where we have several videos interviewing the people that we've helped.
Chuck Crismier: Now, in talking with a woman from North Korea yesterday, her ministry called Transform Iran, they're using the digital world as a means of leaping over the walls in Iran that the Ayatollah prevents the gospel from entering. How do you leap over these walls?
Dan Chung: Unfortunately, there aren't very many ways to leap over the walls digitally because most North Koreans don't have a computer.
Chuck Crismier: So you've got to be there personally. You've got to have boots on the ground, so to speak.
Dan Chung: Well, we minister to people in China, and as those people get, unfortunately, caught and sent back to North Korea, the gospel also spreads that way. We think that's a very strategic way for us to work. We don't hope that these people get caught, but inevitably when they do, they do bring the gospel with them.
Chuck Crismier: Wow. So it's estimated that in 2002, there were about 12,000 Protestants and 800 Catholics in North Korea. How many true followers of Jesus Christ do you think are in North Korea today?
Dan Chung: Voice of the Martyrs says that there are about 400,000 believers in North Korea today. Now, I don't know how they counted.
Chuck Crismier: Yeah, they can't do a census over there because that would condemn them all.
Dan Chung: Exactly. But they do have reach into North Korea, and I think that that's the most reliable number that we have today. They say there is a revival going on in North Korea today.
Chuck Crismier: How would they know that?
Dan Chung: Because I believe they send people into North Korea, like merchants who can do trade in North Korea and also spread the gospel.
Chuck Crismier: Interesting. Okay, so trade missionaries. Wow. What a world we live in. From Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea that used to be called the Jerusalem of the East, to now being the most dangerous place in the world for Christians to be. That's quite a journey. You say the Holy Spirit is working. What do you see as we are coming closer and closer to the return of Christ? Do you see this kind of revival sweeping North Korea, perhaps sweeping out the Kim false religion out there and returning more to an East Jerusalem again? What do you see?
Dan Chung: That's what I'm praying for. I get asked quite often in these interviews, how can we pray for freedom in North Korea so that the gospel could proliferate there? In that question is an assumption that we need freedom in order for the gospel to spread.
Chuck Crismier: Isn't that interesting? That's an American idea, isn't it?
Dan Chung: Isn't it? Yes. Our faith, you have to remember, we were born in the Roman Empire, another brutal dictatorship. And perhaps we were made to survive and to thrive in these dictatorships. So I ask people just to pray that the Lord would continue to work. I don't know how the gospel is spreading in North Korea, but I thank God that it is. I thank God that He doesn't need limitations. He scoffs at our limitations like these dictatorships. Much like the Roman Empire became a Christian empire, I do pray that that would happen to North Korea.
Chuck Crismier: It is indeed interesting, Dan, that the gospel spread not by people being delivered to freedom, but by them exercising their faith amid persecution. That's how the gospel spread throughout the world. That's what the Book of Acts tells us, and it seems like we have a very different idea of it here in America. Maybe that's why things are getting pretty tough here. Maybe there is persecution coming here. Maybe we need to understand that a little bit more. We don't want to be like North Korea, but things are getting tougher and tougher here. So pray for us as well. I hope your three kids, teenagers now, are able to handle this. I don't know how you're preparing them for a hard freedom here in this country, but keep up the good work, Dan. Really appreciate you joining us here on the program. God bless and be a blessing.
Dan Chung: Thanks, Chuck.
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